Do you think if you had to move to a different country for work or for any other reason, that you could do it? (Let's assume you have the financial ability to do so).
I'm interested to see how people think they would react to being completely immersed in a different culture and language, and how you all would react to that. Have any of you thought about packing up and moving somewhere else?
Over the past few days I've been getting back into the French language, reading and watching French news to catch up on things. It's reignited that spark that I've always had for the language and culture, and I don't think I'll ever fall out of love with France. If things were to fall apart here, I would seriously consider packing up and trying to get a job and life there. After having been there twice and living there for a couple months I've always thought about what it would be like to make that change more permanent.
Yep. I have done this in the past and will likely do so again. In my experience it takes a few years to get over the culture shock and even then there are "huh?!" moments. I've had a few cultural breakdowns, I will admit. I once got so fed up with the way things were going that I stormed over to the nearest American themed restaurant and ordered two cheeseburgers and two Budweisers, eating and drinking both simultaneously. There's a lot of romantic notions out there about expat life, and the reality is much different. A lot of ex-pats tend not to make much effort in assimilating and that can be a major isolator. Not everyone experiences this particular loneliness, but many don't consider the sheer effort it can take to live outside of one's culture. The other side of that is sometimes ex-pats tend to congregate with other ex-pats. Personally I don't like most large ex-pat communities as they tend to create a bubble around themselves which can lead to feelings of superiority or other weirdness. I used to live in a place with a Russian ex-pat community and I was friends with a few of the guys who were really great, but by and large the community was very insular, going so far as to have their own compound. Granted, most of them worked for the same company, but it got to the point where no other ex-pats were allowed inside it, due to an incident at a Christmas party where several of my friends were accused of hitting on women they shouldn't have. That's a really extreme case though. Living in a place for a few months is very different from making a life in a place though, in my experience. It can still be a really great experience, but it's kind of like eating a fast food burger compared to eating one made by a guy who has made nothing but hamburgers for 50 years and has it down to a fine art.
American Themed Restaurants... shudders ...other people on my study abroad wanted to go to those every so often but I just told them to have fun and headed down to the nearest decent boulangerie. That's very interesting, I wasn't aware that ex-pat communities are a thing that happens in different countries, though it makes sense. I can definitely see people from the same area grouping together and kind of closing themselves off from the rest of the country. Actually, that's kind of what happens with a lot of the Indian population at my University come to think of it. I'd love to hear more about your experiences as an ex-pat. What country did you live in, and did you already have experience with the language and culture prior to living there?
I've lived in the Netherlands for a study abroad and in Vietnam. The study abroad was cool, though with classes and the living arrangement I didn't really get into the culture much. It didn't seem terribly dissimilar from the US on any level I saw, but I was only there for a semester. And I lived in a castle, so not really a good "everyman" experience. Prior to living in Vietnam I basically knew that in the US they sold phở and ran nail salons. Of course I knew about the Vietnam war and a little about Ho Chi Minh. But no, no language to speak of. After college I got a TEFL certificate and a job offer in Vietnam for a position at a well-known (and often derided by ex-employees) English school in a small city where most of the oil production is done. Oil=international business and a whole lot of peripheral business to cater to the guys working on the rigs, so it's a bit bizarre. In some ways HCMC/Sài Gòn is no better, but it's different. The thing about Vietnam and its people is that they have a very, very strong idea of who they are as a nation and though the South hates the North and the middle of Vietnam, based around the old imperial capital of Huế has its own identity, as does the Mekong delta region, all essentially agree that they are one people. The reason Nguyễn is such a common surname is that it's the only Vietnamese family name that does not have a Chinese origin. Furthermore, most of the people belong to the ethnic group called the Kinh. Add the natural border of essentially impassable mountains that separates Laos and Cambodia, save a few tightly controlled passes and you've got a good setting for some serious unity. That said, an outsider can never be Vietnamese. Even war babies are not considered truly Viet, though children from the American War as they call it, can gain citizenship after going through a really Byzantine process that involves never setting foot outside of the country for a 5 year period. If they were born in the country, they technically have citizenship but are generally looked down on. This also goes for Việt Kiều or overseas Vietnamese. These are often looked down on because they fled the war and are now returning to buy up land and businesses and generally be kind of shitty. As for those that served in the South Vietnamese army, they were stripped of citizenship and papers and so could not be a part of society except for motorcycle taxi (xe ôm) drivers or cyclo drivers and things of that nature. I once rode with one of these guys and it turned out that he had been a radar operator at a U.S. run base and for the last few decades has been scraping by. I would have doubted it, as many have sob stories but he said it in impeccable English, which is hard to come by in Vietnam. South East Asians in general, excluding the island nations have the toughest time picking up natural sounding accents because of the grammatical structure and the phonemic palette used in the languages. So to loop back to culture, many Vietnamese do not understand how being American works. I can't tell you how many thousands of times I had to explain that my parents are immigrants, that I was born here and that I am in fact just as much an American as my blond-haired, blue-eyed, corn-fed friend. This attitude, coupled with unscrupulous business practices by many foreign companies when Vietnam re-opened to trade in 1991 as well as the deep distrust the Vietnamese have historically held against foreigners made for a very interesting experience. Not to mention the maddening complexities and seemingly simplistic language that is tiếng Việt. Anyway, on arrival I found I had to ditch my Boston way of living, that is to say pushy, impatient and blunt in favor of taking things slow, speaking with great subtlety and applying pressure in ways I had never considered. I got myself what locals call "a long-haired dictionary" (a girlfriend) and started taking lessons in Vietnamese. As I mentioned in this thread, at first I went to markets pretending I had a sore throat, pointing at things. I am Asian, so I could pass for a local, albeit a very tall, very muscular local, relative to the typical Viet guy of course. People also liked to comment on my teeth. Let's just say that dentistry is only now becoming very important. Who can blame them though, it's relatively expensive and until recently, could be quite painful. Another weird thing was that people don't go to bars. Bars were introduced by foreigners, usually for foreign soldiers at various points in time and they have always been stocked with whores. Prostitution is pretty rampant there and locals tend to go to barbershops, massage parlors and karaoke places. Once I was taken out by a group of professionals who I was teaching, looked over and one of them was fingering one of the girls sent to keep us company. Ick. Anyway, this means that local people tend to think that most foreign guys, especially single ones are whoring all the time. So, I definitely have a love/hate relationship with the country. I don't know if I could live there again, particularly since my last business venture failed through no fault of my own other, than partnering with an 82 year old friend who ended up dying and thus, so did the funding provided by grateful recipients of his compassion decades before. I will say that the experience of it all changed me and in many ways for the better. If I had no ambition, I would still be there, living in the same beautiful house overlooking the harbor that I'd never be able to afford living in, if it were located in the US. I often wonder if I've made a mistake trying to change my life for the better, but as they say, "no backsies." I am often left wondering how I can use these experiences to leverage a better life for myself post-Vietnam. Vietnamese is a supremely useless language internationally, except for maybe speaking to Vietnamese people. I also wonder if my time there hasn't kind of killed my resume. I went when I was 22 and came back when I was 27. I just turned 28 and school seems like a dwindling option, but I really hope to get work in an international capacity so that's what I'm working toward now. As I understand it, finding employment in the EU and getting a valid work permit can be tough for US citizens, but if you've got an in then it's relatively easy. If I could recommend one thing about living abroad, it's to have a plan. Get an idea of what you'd like to be able to do once you come out of the experience and allow for that plan to change. But, have a plan.
No only could I do it, but I would absolutely welcome it. Unfortunately, right now my wife is doing her medical residency so we can't just up and move. But one day we will be able to and I am in favor of it for at least a few years. Where? Not sure yet. I work for a global company so I could likely transfer. Life's an adventure.
The idea is appealing and it's definitely something that is romanticized. I'd like to think that I would enjoy it and relish in the opportunity. Unfortunately, if I were to be completely realistic, I would lose my mind. My anxiety would keep me nearly incapable of going to a store. If it was a country that spoke a language other than English, I would sit in front of a mirror, scared to go outside, because I would be too worried about messing up the language and getting myself into trouble somehow, or even just embarrassing myself. I'd probably end up sitting in a small room, too stubborn to admit it was a bad idea and too nervous to do much of anything. Of course, that would be if I were to go alone. With my partner, I'd survive. She'd enjoy every single second, I would be so worried about breaking any cultural norms that she'd just have to laugh at me. I assume at some point, I would get used to it and maybe even comfortable.
I was hoping to get a reply as to why somebody wouldn't be comfortable doing so! That's a very real possibility depending on your ability and experience with a given language. But the beautiful part about going to store or what have you is that in normal conversation native speakers don't worry about following all of the grammatical conventions that are hammered into you when you learn the language. It's usually about flow and what's most comfortable, at least for Western languages.
Yeah, I have really bad anxiety. I have trouble going to stores down the street from me, I imagine it would be ten times worse in a foreign country.
Back when I was a sarariman my happy place was a beach on the island of Vanuatu. My wife, you see, was training to be a midwife... and in order to get all the births she would need for her license, she would likely need to head off to a 3rd world country and deliver babies for six to eight weeks. So there I would sit, drawing TV layouts for Hooters restaurants, dreaming of the six to eight weeks I would spend sitting on a beach, drinking cheap kava and typing on a laptop that hadn't seen the Internet in weeks. Unfortunately she was so good at getting births that she got them all out of the way before she even left school. I just watched Les Miserables last night. I could nuke France right now.
briandmyers, as an expat what has your experience been like? If I recall correctly, you've been abroad for quite some time now. What's the situation in the accent department? You still sound like a yank?
I moved to NZ from Oklahoma in 1998, and have not regretted it since, not even a little. It was a big jump, but we jumped with both feet anyway - me, my wife (Arizonan by birth) and a teen-aged son. We soon had a half-Kiwi grandson, and we've adopted new family ties here. Got my NZ citizenship in 2008. This land is now my home, and I love it dearly. It's tough to not see friends and family for long periods of time, but everything else is good. My accent won't go away, so most Kiwis assume I'm a tourist or a short-timer until they get to know me. I regret that I haven't had much spare time lately to follow conversations on hubski.
Good to hear from you Brian. How is the new gig going? I know you had a lot on your plate. You ever hear anything regarding the honey/beer you sent my way? I didn't. Someday I'll have to come to NZ to get my share.
The package ended up being sent back to NZ, and they sent me a letter saying I could have it, if I paid the return postage - which I ain't gonna do. One of these days I'll try again, and just describe the contents differently - i.e. it's not beer, it's a live yeast culture. And perhaps some insect vomit as well :-) The new job keeps me extremely busy, but in a good way. Full days and plenty of work to be done. I'm doing programming work on point-of-sale payment terminals. Not sexy, but challenging (lots of crypto stuff).
POS for many types of businesses or specifically for... say, restaurants? I've dealt with a number of POS companies in the past and some seem great and others really take you to the cleaners. Hopefully you're with the good-guys. Good luck! Let me know if you ever get around to sending some yeast cultures ;-)
I just work on the payment terminals - we often have to communicate with POS software systems, but we don't do that side of things ourselves. We do the financial and security side of things. Most of my work is for overseas systems - UK, Malaysia, and Australia so far.
If I were to move to a different country it would be England, Germany or Latvian. And I've often thought of whether I could leave. It's an issue I think most Latvian-Americans/Canadians/Australians/etc. deal with. There was a major exodus during WWII with people thinking, "we'll be back once the Soviets are gone and our country regains independence." But it took until 1990 for this to happen, by which point Latvians had established lives in the countries they'd moved to. My grandparents were living with their children who had grown up in the United States. Their whole lives were in America, not Latvia. The same goes for me and all the other Latvians I know. We've created a culture here and become completely invested within it. Thankfully I speak Latvian (and also German), but I'm not sure if I could ever leave. The problem for me wouldn't be a culture shock or a language barrier, but leaving my home.
Have you ever thought of simply moving to Latvia for a year or two to try it out? It's extremely common for Canadians and Australians to spend a couple of years in their 20s in the UK on working holiday visas. If Latvia doesn't suit there's nothing stopping you from heading back to the states.
I have thought about it, but my first goal is to finish school, whenever that happens. But one of the things about having this community is that there are so many things happen on a regular schedule that I don't want to miss. It's like having a family reunion biannually that I don't want to miss.
I spent 6 months in Australia, backpacking with my girlfriend. It was fun, but I think at this point I would want a more permanent move, like renting an apartment, getting a decent job and living in the new place for a couple of years. Lately my gf and I have been bouncing around the idea of moving to Washington state. There's a program at Gonzaga that my gf wants to enroll in, and I just want a new adventure. We're young, healthy, and have no kids, so now is the time, haha. My advice is to research it. Find out if it is viable. If it can be done, do it! It's easier than most people think.
Absolutely. I learned German to a passable speaking standard in school so I would probably be able to get by at a German university (on an English taught course?). Or I could just move to the USA. I have learned far too much about that country via the Internet for the knowledge not to be put to use at some point.
Oh my, I looked at the fees for places like ETH Zurich - £1400 a year is damn cheap. Forget paying off your tuition fees in a few years, I could pay that back in a matter of months! Very tempting indeed. That said, my (UK) university offers ~£2000 master's degrees for students who get a first-class bachelor's degree and wish to stay on for another year.