Are there many vegans here?
Few months ago after reading some books about animal farming I've decided on becoming a vegan. The moment has been postponed, because of many other things I'm currently busy with, but now I've decided it's already been too long and finally make it into action.
Can you give me some recommendations (web pages, articles, books) on how to start? I don't want to stop eating animals products without any knowledge of how to do so. I've been raised in Poland, where we eat meat a lot. I know how to cook, but don't know many dishes that would be vegan. I also don't know too much about nutrition in general. I've already ordered a book "Becoming Vegan (Comprehensive edition)" by Vesanto Melina & Brenda Davis, which seems to be rich in information about nutrition.
Also, do you think that our eating habits really do make a change on the animal welfare and the environment? What are the other ways we could work on improving that?
That's one of the most exciting news I've read here on hubski. Congratulations for making the connection between compassion, environment and health and not stopping at the half-hearted contradiction that is vegetarianism. I was vegetarian for about 6 years and gradually phased out animal products before becoming 100% vegan about 2 years ago. I'm not a nutritionist but have done some research and date a long term vegan nutrition student who's finishing her course this year. I'll fill in what I can think of from the top of my head and will perhaps come back later with further advice from my partner to fill in the gaps. That's a very wise approach. I know vegans who's values changed for animal-rights reasons and without any consideration for their own health, which is a dangerous affair and probably end up stopping being vegan after some time blaming the diet. This isn't an issue specific to Veganism alone by the way. Any type of diet can be dangerous without paying attention to the nutrition needs of the body, as high levels of obesity and countless other omnivore diet based illnesses prove. However, while it is socially acceptable to die of a stroke (which can be the first symptom of over consumption of animal fat), vegans health is put under the microscope by non-vegans who blame the diet for their condition. In nutritional terms, you're not giving anything up, you're simply substituting. To start of with, if you miss the flavour of animal products, you can try some processed foods to make the transition easier. I don't know what the state of vegan products is in Poland but here in the UK there's quite a selection of flavoured tofus from smoked to tomato, olive and herbs to suit any taste. There are also vegan cheeses, yogurts and fake meats such as seitan. There are a handful of plant based "milks", almond and coconut are my favourites. Health stores usually carry some of these more alternative foods. Pack up on seeds, nuts and fruits for snacking on and be adventurous trying vegetables, pulses and algae that perhaps you haven't tried before. Becoming vegan definitely opened my flora horizons. Consider investing in a good blender and a good slow juicer. Smoothies are awesome and an easy way of making a quick, tasty, nutritious breakfast or snack. The slow juicer is great at getting the nutrients out of all those veggies. Add some fruit for sweetness but I wouldn't advise drinking a lot of fruit juices. From a nutritional point of view (this is actually useful for anyone interested in healthy living) check out this nutrition tracking tool. This way you can learn as you go along about what gaps you need to fill in your diet. There's also this incredibly useful reference resource on Nutrition Data to check the nutritional value of foods. Here's an example for kale and here for a cruel example of lamb. These two tools can be invaluable in giving you some guidance at this stage. Things to watch out for If you're doing a balanced vegan diet, protein is the last thing you need to worry about unless you're doing lot's of exercise. This is because most foods contain the building blocks of protein. Yes, even greens contain protein. As you can see in the link above, kale contains all the 9 amino-acids, which your body will use to build protein. So have a diverse diet and add some nuts and pulses once in a while such as lentils, beans, peas and chickpeas. If you're female you should pay particular attention to Iron and consider supplementing. Lot's of green vegetables are a must for Iron and Calcium. Get Selenium from a couple of Brazil nuts a day. And Iodine from algae once in a while. Vitamin D is generated by your skin from sunlight. So if you don't get a minimum of 20mins of sunshine a day you should supplement. This is true for any diet since vitamin D is not available from animal products either. One thing that you will need to supplement every 2 or 3 days is B12. B12 is generated by a soil bacteria. Herbivores eat some bacteria with their grass and assimilate B12 that way. These days, with factory farming, few animals enjoy a life in the green grassy fields. In fact most of them never get to even see or taste grass. They are re fed grain (usually GM) and so they must get B12 shots along with the growth hormone dose. Actually an interesting fact is that we generate B12 in our gut but it's too far down to be assimilated. Some apes solve this by eating some of their own poop. Something which I do not advise : ) I would advise you to find and join a local vegan group for support and sharing of ideas. If one doesn't exist, create one. You might be nicely surprised to find out that there are more vegans around you than you thought. Finally, there are countless resources online. YouTube can be a good resource if you know what you're looking for. I have built a documentary website with a health section which contains some nutrition videos. A Diet for All Reasons is probably the best for nutritional advice. But there are many others on the subject. A few from the top of my head are Cowspiracy, Vegucated, Food Matters, The Future of Food, Earthlings. Good luck with your transition and please let me know if there's anything you need more in depth info. I'm happy to help where I can.I don't want to stop eating animals products without any knowledge of how to do so.
Can you give me some recommendations (web pages, articles, books) on how to start?
I apologise if you feel offended. My last intention is to insult anyone. As I said I was vegetarian for 6 years. I was happy with the compromise of not killing animals and I thought I would be vegetarian for life. Until I understood the animal suffering that still exists in the production of dairy and egg products. The word production itself when associated with sentient beings should already ring alarm bells but I'll explain. Just to give you a couple of examples. Egg laying chicks, when they are born, if male they are ground into dog food straight away. If female, they have their beaks cut so they won't peck each other. They are placed in tiny cages about the size of their bodies to lay eggs until they stop "producing". At which point they become worthless from a financial point of view and are killed for meat. Milk cows are forcibly impregnated so they will have a calf. If the calf is male, it gets sold for veal meat. If female it gets placed in a cubicle where she gets fed grains and pumped with milk producing hormones. The process repeats while the cow is able to "produce" milk. At which point it has the same end of life faith as the egg layer. Sure if you're wealthy enough you can opt for the organic cheese and milk, which is slightly better from an animal welfare point of view. Although, many farmers do their organic bit because of the extra premium of organic products and not necessarily because they care any more for their animals than their non-organic counterparts. I'm not putting an obligation on anyone. If you are you ok with the subjugation and premature killing of another sentient being for the pleasure of your taste buds, that's your choice. I chose not to do it since I can. I have had several discussions here, some with other vegetarians, trying to explain the difference between animal welfare and an animal's right to a free life. They are very distinct values. Once people were ok with slavery and those who pointed out the madness were not welcome for a long time. Animal rights is an extension of human rights and the social movement of our times.
I am not a vegetarian or a vegan, and your continued implications that eating meat or any other animal products is some sort of grand moral failing is not appreciated. I also do not appreciate the condescension in the sentence "If you are you ok with the subjugation and premature killing of another sentient being for the pleasure of your taste buds, that's your choice." Ooo, how cruel. Pure nasty me for subjugating and killing those creatures for my own terrible taste buds. "I'm not putting an obligation on anyone" Bullshit. Get off your high horse. You put an obligation on others with every sentence you write. Do you think I needed the standard spiel about factory farming? I'm not going to respond as of yet to the comparison with slavery. I'm sure you'll make your views clear in your response.
If you're not vegetarian, why did you take offence to my vegetarian comment? Were you trying to defend a group which you do not belong to, like vegans defend on a daily basis a massive group of beings which have no voice? I'm not on a high horse. You would have to have some feeling of inferiority to think that. I'm pointing out the reality and you feel offended because you happen to be playing a part of it. You became defensive and the best that you can come up with is a personal attack. Which of my arguments about animal rights did you have an issue with? If there is a fallacy in my logic please point it out. It's a lot easier to attack the messenger than to come up with a logical reason for eating animal products. Why can we not compare animal abuse for human needs (which can be met by other means) with slavery? I said that animal rights is an extension of human rights, not the same thing but an extension. If a pig feels pain like a human feels pain, why should we not wish a cruelty free life for both? And this is simply from an ethical point of view, we're not even mentioning environment, resources and health impact of producing and consuming animal products.
I took offense because it was a snooty, judging comment on other people's eating habits. Love the false equivalency. Love how you imply I am inferior to you. The "best" I can come up with. Lovely. Yes, I have a problem with comparing the harvesting of animal products from animals to human suffering. They are not the same. More eloquent people than me have already expressed their feelings on this subject to you. Comparing animal abuse with slavery is something that shows your apparent lack of understanding of the cruelty inflicted on the enslaved. I know nothing about logical fallacies. I know when I'm being assaulted from the moral equivalent of the Himalayas.
I'm not going to repeat myself nor will I take notice of personal attacks. You have a problem with comparing "harvesting of animal products" to human suffering, yet you can't explain why. That's called cognitive dissonance coupled with speciesism. People get touchy about comparing animals with humans as if humans are not animals. Do you not agree that suffering is the same regardless of species? I'm not saying that a human salve is the same as a chicken slave, I'm saying that both have the capacity to feel pain and cruelty and both strive for a free life and both deserve it. My final thought is this; If thanks to science in today's modern western society, we know it is possible to live healthy, comfortable lifestyles where no animals are harmed, why should we still chose to do so?
Can't I explain why? On one side, you have animals processed and harvested for food. The problem of needless cruelty in this process exists. On the other side, you have...human suffering. Poverty, war, rape, crime, etc. I believe that the suffering of humans is of an order of magnitude more important than any suffering an animal could go through. I do not agree that each pain is the same. Both have the capacity to feel pain. I doubt an animal knows what cruelty is, only that it is being hurt. An animal does not strive for a free life any more than a tree wants to be in the sun. It would benefit it, but it does not dream of freedom. That sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but it's the only way I can think to put it. I do have a problem with needless pain in the harvesting process, but I think that food production is a need. There is no such reason for the suffering of humans. If I think humans and animals are different, than apparently I am a "speciesist." It is certainly possible to live without consuming animal products, but why bother?
I'm obviously wasting my time. I'm sorry for wasting yours. Have a nice life....why bother?
Oh, can't explain in return? That's called giving up. "Have a nice life." Glad to see you abandon the hunt as soon as you lose the advantage. Oops, did I trigger you by saying "hunt?" EDIT: What an overly simplistic view of the world. What else could I have expected.
Don't get too worked up about OrganicAnt. They've been a constant, infuriating, stubborn debate partner on this topic for a long time, entering the fray originally by going onto our weekly grubski post and only posting pictures of young animals, as if it would lead to us feeling bad about eating meat, without backing up anything said. If you want to see a full discussion we had on meat and got into rather heated arguments with said poster, refer to this post by TNG so we could all be open. I... went off quite a bit after they decided to equate eating meat to genocide, after an already long rant about the topic at hand.
I believe that the suffering of humans is of an order of magnitude more important than any suffering an animal could go through.
That part really makes me wonder how insensitive to animal suffering people can be. Even if you only consider the physical pain. This is something that most human beings are very afraid of and try to eliminate it from our society almost completely, while leaving billions animals annually to suffer the pains of terrible amounts . Do you really think that animals don't feel the pain or feel it different than we do? In fact we are just another animal. Do you really think that it is alright if a one cow at a 10,000 is skinned alive and concious, just so the costs of meat could be reduced by few cents?
If we are just another animal is more a philosophic kind of question I don't aspire to answer. Still it's easy to see that we are an animal and we have a lot in common with them. And even if you consider human suffering more important than animals', consider the amounts. There are around 60 billions land animals killed every year, that is 10 times more there are people living. Not every human on Earth is suffering dramatic conditions, while more than 90% of those animals do.
Do you mean to imply that one human suffering will always be worth than any number of animal suffering? That would make animal suffering worthless forever.
That's an awesome piece of advice. Just what I was looking for. Thank you very much. Still I have few questions. How do I know when something goes wrong? - my diet is lacking in something. I bet this will show as some medical problems, but probably only in the long run. Is there a way to verify, let's say after 6 months, if my diet is alright and my levels of nutrients and vitamins are alright?Consider investing in a good blender and a good slow juicer. Smoothies are awesome and an easy way of making a quick, tasty, nutritious breakfast or snack. The slow juicer is great at getting the nutrients out of all those veggies. Add some fruit for sweetness but I wouldn't advise drinking a lot of fruit juices.
Do I really need the blender when I buy the juicer? For what kind of things? BTW, before you mentioned it, I didn't realize there was any difference between a blender and a juicer.A Diet for All Reasons is probably the best for nutritional advice. But there are many others on the subject. A few from the top of my head are Cowspiracy, Vegucated, Food Matters, The Future of Food, Earthlings.
I've seen Earthlings. Came on it by accident - my aunt bought some random video CDs when visiting China and that it one of them. Hard to watch, but I think everybody in our civilization should see it. Wish they've taught me that in school. And I'll definetely watch "A Diet for All Reasons" in a few days.
You're very welcome, I'm glad to hear you found it useful. b_b's reply is very comprehensive in explaining the differences. The blender is definitely more useful. The reason why I recommend a juicer is because it's a lot easier to drink a glass of green juice extracted from let's say 2 pounds of greens than to eat 2 pounds of greens. Basically it's a way of drinking concentrated nutrition. It's true that a lot gets wasted, mainly fibre but if juicing is going to get you drinking more greens I say that's a good compromise. I emphasise the greens because they contain so much goodness, they're the best source of multi vitamins and minerals. And if you start juicing herbs, the concentrations of this goodness goes of the roof. Anyway, a juicer is not essential, it's just an enhancement to any diet. How does anyone know when something is wrong? Through symptoms. You can always do preventative tests. There are blood tests to check for certain mineral or vitamin deficiency. These tend to be quite expensive though. So the wise thing to do is what you're doing. Inform yourself on what takes to make a balanced diet, use tracking tools such as the links I shared before. Basically prevention is the best kind of cure, regardless of diet. Absolutely. Cowspiracy is a good second documentary more focused on the environment and less on animal rights. Basically any environmentalism approach that doesn't take into account the pollution caused by animal farming is doomed to fail.Do I really need the blender when I buy the juicer?
How do I know when something goes wrong?
I've seen Earthlings. Came on it by accident - Hard to watch, but I think everybody in our civilization should see it.
A blender and a juicer are vastly different. A juicer extracts only the liquid component of whatever goes into it. You can make some tasty things, but you lose a lot. A blender simply dissociates whatever you put into it. All the fiber, insoluble protein, etc. remain. Texturally, the results are very different. Juicing gives you a beverage, while blending will make more like a drinkable meal. Juicing is easy, because you can pretty much put anything into a juicer, and in the end, you only get the juice. When making a blended concoction, you sometimes need to removed rinds or seeds. Also one can use a blender to make soups, sauces and the like. If you only get one, definitely get a blender.
Cooking. Since no one else has really mentioned it. The key to vegan cooking is umami. It's the 'savory' taste in meat, and you can find it in vegetables if you know where to look. Onion, garlic, soy sauce, and mushrooms are the big ones. Shiitake are much better than white. Seaweed is also good. To a lesser extent, tomatoes, potatoes, and spinach. I'm not vegan, but I don't eat much meat. I prefer to modify meat recipes, rather than seek out vegan recipes. There are a lot more non-vegan recipes out there. I recommend researching umami. Eggplant and tofu sub for meat well. I actually like tofu, but I know many people don't. There are a lot of ways to prepare it, and you can do a much better job than most restaurants and processed stuff. Don't recommend Tofurkey brand anything; nasty. Tempeh. If you can find it, get it. Great stuff. Makes great sandwiches. Nutritional Yeast (nooch). If you can find it, get it. Best vegan 'cheesy' taste. You can sprinkle it on anything – soups, stews, popcorn. I'm fond of silken tofu with nooch, as a scrambled egg substitute. Here's a vegan 'chicken' flavouring I really like. It's basically just nooch, garlic, and onion powder. But it's a good recipe. You can keep a big jar of it around to put in stuff, or make broth with. Speaking of broth, learn to make a good vegetable broth. It's easy, and a good veggie broth will be better than even a meat broth from a can or cube. I definitely recommend Koridofu. Ground beef substitute. It was created by Buddhist monks a millenia ago. Just freeze a block of tofu, thaw, wash and squeeze out the yellow water (tofu flavour you don't want), and cook with oil and umami flavourings like diced shiitake and garlic. The flavour is light, but the texture is surprisingly like ground beef (the ice crystals break it up in a special way). Great for chili, taco seasoning, etc. I eat it by itself with quinoa, with chili sauce and Sriracha. I also highly recommend nut cheese. It's real, cultured, probiotic, tastes great, and IMO fun to make. I don't recommend any 'vegan cheese' in supermarkets (unless it's specifically nut cheese). That stuff is all nasteh. I generally prefer nooch-based flavouring to sub chicken, and shiitake-based to sub beef. You're not going to replace them, but these complement best I think. Finally, Thug Kitchen: some of the best vegan recipes out there. As others said, watch your vitamins. Calcium deficiency will give you osteoporosis at 40. Vitamin D and Iron will make you anemic and tired all the time. B12 will do nothing for 10 years, and then you'll die a horrible, painful death. Not kidding. Take vitamins.
Thanks. Lots of valuable info here. I had no idea there is such a taste as umami. Even reading about it, I have a hard time imagining what it actually means : ).
ADVICE FROM A NON-VEGAN 1. It may be easiest to gradually become vegan - start by going vegetarian and then progressing. Because 2. DID YOU KNOW HOW MUCH SHIT HAS ANIMAL PRODUCTS IN IT? My favorite - white sugar! White sugar is purified by sifting it through bone char. Bones are an animal product and not vegan. Also on this "fun not vegan foods" list: gelatin, whey, almost all bread/baked goods (but not all), chocolate of course, certain red dyes (made from beetles!), certain food flavorings (including my favorite, beaver anal gland - which is used to give things a raspberry flavor), anything containing casein, whey, gelatin, the afore-mentioned white sugar, and so on. SO 3. Get ready to do some serious, serious label-reading. ALSO 4. Don't trust restaurant food that "looks" vegetarian. French onion soup? Delicious, and full of veggies! But - traditionally made with beef stock. Any soup at a restaurant is probably made with meat stock. 5. Get ready for people to ask you ridiculous things. When I was vegetarian my aunt asked me if I still ate pie. I asked her if the pie had meat in it. (I was a sarcastic vegetarian.) 6. Try and make sure you eat a lot of protein. I had a friend who was vegetarian and was ordered to start eating meat due to an iron deficiency. (She went pescatarian.) Veganism isn't my thing - but good luck. Oh, also, some people will refuse to date you because of this life choice. That's okay. There are also vegetarians and vegans who don't like to date meat eaters. Cuts both ways, just don't be that offended when it happens.
Not an altogether ridiculous thing to ask, as the best pie is made with animal lard, or butter at the very least (although I understand most vegetarians still consume butter). I've not tasted a vegan pie crust that I thought was much better than slapping some fillings on cardboard.
Thanks for that advice. You aren't a vegetarian no more, are you? Why did you stop? As for people asking me ridiculous things, I hope they will! There's a lot people around me don't know about that I can tell them. It's one of the reasons I think such a decision can really make a difference.
Careful with that. I've found that many vegans and vegetarians assume the rest of us aren't vegan or vegetarian because we don't know the impact of our choices on the animal kingdom... when in fact, we don't care. Starting the conversation necessarily requires you painting us as either (A) ignorant or (B) callous. Meanwhile, we're just trying to have lunch. I have several friends who are vegetarian. We can share a table without any problems - we've even had conversations about vegetarianism. Vegans are trickier. There's more of a moral judgement in veganism that tends to color any conversations about food.There's a lot people around me don't know about that I can tell them
To add to this, "care" can mean many things. I may care about the wholesale pollution of the environment, overfishing of oceans, seas, and gulfs, and excessive CO2 production from an over-consumption of meat while also not caring whether or not I indulge in taking the (delicious) profits away from the (literal) worker bee. Then there's also "care but don't think it'll change anything" camp, which I can never decide if I'm actually inside or not... Or hell, "care, but am incapable of being a purist for one reason or another".
Hi kleinbl00, it's been a while. I think we can all agree that murder and rape of human beings is morally wrong. There's no question about that. Every civilized society agrees that violence towards human beings is absolutely disgusting and should be avoided and prevented. There are not "many dimensions" to it. Yet, when it comes to beings which are totally defensiveless and speechless, because we happen to not be in the receiving end of their abuse, all of the sudden morality has "many dimensions". I say, there are only as "many dimensions" to animal rights as there are excuses to keep on doing something for personal pleasure which is in essence abusive and repugnant.
organicAnt should be able to give you some pointers.
Do you mean Boulder, Colorado? Are you living there? In fact I'm just moving out from Poland and haven't yet decided where to. I might consider it as an option. Any need for programmers there? : )
Are you Polish or are you just there temporarily? I'm asking cause I send my exchange semester in Warsaw last year and absolutely loved it in Poland! Every time someone mentions Poland now I feel this nostalgia and feel compelled to eh... well talk about Poland. How do you like it there? Are you moving for other reasons than just work opportunities? (you don't have to answer if that's too personal)
Why vegan? Vegan is like impossible
Try vegetarianism and buy milk+eggs from family farms. Also, don't buy some stupid book, going veg isn't too hard, try cooking, like rob05c you'll probably need to learn to cook Also, are you going veg in principle or practice
If in practice start checking you labels on the products you buy,
Buy microwavable and ovenable (lol) food Also, don't eat at McDonalds
What's wrong with buying books? I find the info in books (although I can't say about the average, as I always do some research to find some best ones in the subject) generally valuable, while in Internet it's more hit and miss with much more percentage trashy content. And I guess I simply like that feel and the fact that I'm off of the screen for a while. I'm going vegan, as I feel it can do more good for the animal welfare.
All animal products. At first I intented to be a vegetarian, but the more I read the more I realised that milked cows and egg laying hens don't have anyway better life than a meat cow or pig. And it seems all animal products are full of antibiotics and germs anyway. How do you like the pescetarian in your family? Is she/he healthy?
Mainly for ethical reasons - both for animal welfare and saving our natural environment/climate. I don't have any health problems as well.
Are you determined to go without animal products? I've got no idea what the organic food situation is like over there, but there's plenty of meat harvested in a animal welfare-friendly way. At any rate, what would you like to know? You mention nutrition and cooking in your post.
Primarily I'd like to know what do I need to eat and in what amounts to keep myself well nourished and healthy. Also some source of recipes - guidelines on what I can make myself for dinners. As I said, up until now I have hardly know any dishes that would be vegan, not even mentioning that they should compose some full and balance diet. What are the health issues concerned with going vegan? I've read in few places that vegan diet is actually healthier than a meat based one, but I'd like to hear other opinions.
If you're going to remove meat, eggs, and milk, you're going to need new sources of protein and calcium. And Vitamin D, I guess. Your heart will thank you with a vegan diet, but your bones probably won't. You should eat lots of dark green vegetables (but you'll be doing that anyway), and try to find calcium-fortified milks or juices. You might need to take some sort of multivitamin if you aren't doing that already. I'm trying to think of the worst possible things that could happen. Health issues are mainly calcium deficiencies or vitamin D or B12 deficiencies, as far as I can remember. You just need to remember that going vegan means eating more beans, nuts, and fruit to replace whatever nutrition animal products were giving you. Here, this is a link to a vegetarian recipe magazine that we get: link It's got loads of recipes in it. It's a cooking magazine, so it's a bit overly fancy, but it'll help you get the feel for it. I'm still looking.