a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by camarillobrillo
camarillobrillo  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Noam Chomsky called this political moment 6 years ago

I'm not going to argue with your superior grasp of history. I David, you Goliath. I'm not expecting any overt goose-stepping but you will never convince me that hate and xenophobia aren't the main drivers of the average Trump voter. Trump's "disinterest" with foreign policy is exactly why we should be terrified, if we are indeed the lynchpin of the world we love to say we are.





b_b  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's more subtle than hate, I think. When I think about the Trump voters in my life, they don't hate anyone, per se. They think that White Man is the standard bearer for a reason, and that all other groups exist in America at their pleasure. One could make an argument that that's a form of hate, but it's not classical hate. It's a form of the thought that humanity isn't universal, and America (and the world) has been fighting that demon since the Constitution was adopted. Let's not forget (most people aren't even aware) that the reason Democrats haven't had the last four Presidencies now is that they lost the Electoral College, WHICH WAS CREATED SO THAT SLAVE STATES WOULD RATIFY THE CONSTITUTION. It wasn't created to protect "small" states as you often hear repeated in the media. Rhode Island is pretty fuckin' small, and they were on board with direct voting. Slave states needed over representation as a precondition to ratification so that we wouldn't always have a Northern President. The over representation they had in the House (via slaves counting as 3/5 of a person) still wasn't enough to guarantee that the President wouldn't always be from a Free State. So they came up with the two extra votes as a way to even out the voting between states. Slavery isn't dead, and we continue to let this vestige oppress us, the real moral majority. We need an amendment to rectify this. And we need to stop the PC bullshit about "small" states when we mean "slave" states. It's hurtful to our existence.

kleinbl00  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My position is evolving every day at this point. And believe it or not, I'm not trying to "win" I'm trying to dissuade some of the blinkered terror that comes up whenever a learned scholar invokes Hitler, because invoking Hitler does not improve discourse.

Hate and xenophobia, sure. But what kind of hate? Xenophobia why? And "main" is a tough allegation to make because most Trump voters don't know any Muslims, let alone Syrian refugees.

I worry that there's a tendency on the Left to say "they hate our Freedoms" and move on as if they've somehow parsed the main argument and don't have to think about it anymore. I mean, I have a high suspicion that I wouldn't like to see the voting results of Lawrenceburg, KY, yet I enjoy Wild Turkey rather a lot. There has to be a reason normal humans would vote Trump because I can't accept that half the country is rabid psychopaths.

I said it earlier today and I'll say it again: a disinterested executive isn't the end of the world for the executive branch. Bush II was disinterested. Reagan was demonstrably senile for the last two-three years. But Trump has never existed in the structure he's about to exist in and while I have no doubts that the machinery surrounding him has every intent to Make America Gasp Again, they're going to have to do it at the behest of a man who takes selfies with taco salads.

I dunno. Everybody on the Left is seeing Triumph of the Will. I think it'll be a little too Weekend at Bernie's to get that grim that quick.

camarillobrillo  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I haven't read a Cracked in forever, thanks.

I wasn't being snarky, I really do appreciate your grasp on this shit. Just experiencing some serious fucking disillusionment with everything right now. Life will, hopefully, go on.

kleinbl00  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I know. I'm aware. And obviously I enjoy the discussion.

My disillusionment is tempered by the observation that the whole of the chattering class is flat-footed and floundering and that the only honest ones are writing variations of "what the fuck just happened". The ones that are claiming bullshit like "noam chomsky called this political moment 6 years ago" are the ones that are looking for a safe place to stop thinking.

There are a lot of fundamental tenets of neoliberal thought and policy that aren't questioned because fuck you, that's why. For 30 years it's only been the howling moonbats that talk about the "creature from Jeckyll Island". And first Strauss and Howe, and then Ha-Joon Chang, and then Piketty raise real questions about economics and its effects but nobody listens and now?

Well, now everyone is floundering around for answers and I hope some alternative theories get some real investigation.

Sometimes we need some real fuckin' hubris before we can move on. I guess, in a way, Trump=Hitler is a part of that.