I was recently talking with AlwaysOnTime about wishful thinking and how living toward reaching wishful goals, as idealistic as they may be at times, is better than not doing anything about them at all.
The conversation shifted a little bit: AlwaysOnTime: If only we get enough people to start dreaming again! Myself: How do we begin?
And that got me thinking. How do we begin? Why does it feel that people don't dream anymore? Perhaps throughout the ages, it's always felt that a large part of the population doesn't dream. But something about our time seems different. There's an apparent lack of care (be it for the environment, human interaction, others, etc...) that most carry about them. People no longer seem to care about the quality of anything. We seem to be taught more often 'quantity over quality' for the sake of 'efficiency.' But is being efficient what we really want? Do we really want to be safe? Is not living with uncertainty the entire purpose of living?
I was telling AlwaysOnTime that the reason I listen primarily to jazz is because it's truly good music (I know, I know, there are exceptions). The musicians care so much about the music, have a deep understanding of the music, and can articulate their thoughts in the most beautiful of ways (whether it be through an instrumental solo of lyrics). Take for example a line from the tune All The Things You Are:
- You are the breathless hush of evening
That trembles on the brink of a lovely song
So, what will it take for us to dream again? Care. Appreciation. Love. Understanding. A willingness to put forth at least some effort and learn to love that that isn't easily digested (because I believe that there's a large amount of slothfulness in our world and that's what leads to the lack of the aforementioned).
Talk to your neighbor, the person sitting next to you, get to know strangers! Have human interaction, don't be afraid or anxious to talk to someone you don't know because honestly, they're probably looking for someone to listen to what they have to say. I may be preaching to the choir because of what I've seen on my two days on Hubski, you guys are incredible loving people, and that truly warms my soul. But on the other hand, who better to go out to the masses than those who believe this in their hearts as well?
I've had this bottled up for a while I guess, haha. Thanks for bearing with me through a trip through my mind.
There's a seriously problem with Apathy right now. Why should we care? It's none of our concern. In a society that puts everything in the corner of individual rights and freedoms we begin to lose our sense of community. And it's one thing to dream, but it's another thing entirely to work with people to express this dream to the people around you, and to find the common ground needed to make a huge dream a reality. At the beginning of the 20th century we had hundreds of people trying to develop a way to fly. How nuts is that? We're earthbound by nature, and these folks like the Wright Brothers (who flew in 1903) Gustav Whitehead (who flew a couple years before 1903) discovered new and exciting ways to travel. Within sixty years we were on the moon. The. Moon. How do we not dream like this anymore? Do we think we've done it all? We'll find our dream, hopefully soon. I pray we're simply in a transition period, looking for a new avenue to walk, and struggling to break the bonds pop culture have on our souls.
I think you just struck gold. The transitional period will end when we realize that we are to work together as a community to achieve greatness. Again, you are a really cool person.
Hahahahahaha, this is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. I'm not sure why I enjoyed it so much, but it really made me laugh.
For the majority of people, I think it's safe to say that one cannot feel empathetic towards someone or their situation unless you have experienced something similar. Put simply, kids who have never had to work a job they hated for a long period of time may not treat people at McDonalds with any dignity or respect. That's more of an analogy, however.It's none of our concern. In a society that puts everything in the corner of individual rights and freedoms we begin to lose our sense of community
That's not entirely true since we do in fact have taxes in every developed country. You could deduct the same conclusion from the fact that everyone is having everything given to them free for far too long into adulthood. Much more research into the brains development has me thinking that we need to evaluate "charity" for kids and to what age does it become destructive to the fabric of a caring society.
We live in the amazing time, where you can get anything, find anything, go anywhere (well...almost everywhere) and you mostly don't have to worry about essential things like people did in the past (crops are failing, 5 out of 6 children are going to die). We are so comfortable in our time that we are just relaxed and enjoying everything we can get. We don't do hard labour as people used to, we get better money, we can entertain ourselves with Breaking Bad on TV and tons of other things instead of cheap whiskey in a brothel. The main difference is that in the past there was a lot of unknown to an ordinary human mind and people dreamed about crossing the ocean on a plane, finding out what's killing the babies, how many stars are there, when today it's all known. What about the new stuff, isn't there always something new? It is, but we're too busy not dreaming about it just because we're so comfortable living. So instead of spending a night next to a fire, looking at the stars we watch youtube, talk to people on-line and play videogames. We're very comfortable. People have realized their potential nowadays yet they do nothing with that. We put a veil in front of our eyes so we wouldn't notice the cold, hard, unexplored depths of human mind or universe so we wouldn't take ourselves out of our comfort zone. And about speaking to strangers: a lot of times those strangers don't even have anything interesting to say. In order to get to the essence of a person you have to break through that veil and found out, what kind of real "fire" is inside. We're too afraid to be judged, too scared to be challenged, too frightened to escape the routine, too nervous about achieving something, too unsure about anything and everything. We, the people, hold ourselves back and only we can break this cycle. Don't look at anyone else and do your own thing, ask yourself what do you want and what do you really think. Imagine there's nobody else around you, and break free of everything that might hold you back. Your mind is one amazing thing and you should explore it and eventually that road will bring you up to your standarts of quality life (I mean the non-routine one). At least that's what I think.
I don't think it's possible to associate hardship with greater levels of industry and creativity. If this was true, the people who experience the most problems ought to be the most innovative and proficient in the world. But history has demonstrated that this is much to the contrary. The Russian peasantry spent 300 years in a state of dull backwardness; and they, among all humans, were arguably enduring one of the harshest habitable climates on Earth. It's our comfort that enables us to devote ourselves to the vast struggle of imagination. Agriculture first had to be developed, and settlements established, before we could organise ourselves into complex systems and societies. I think it's better to say that our complacency - not our comfort - is what subdues the creative striving within us. It's not because we're comparatively at ease that we give ourselves over to apathy and slothfulness. It's because we think that there's nothing - not in our families, or communities, or in our nations - to compel us to achieve great successes in our lives. Some people probably have role models, religions, obsessive parents, or a profound attitude of mind, which motivates them to the completion of unlikely tasks. But for most of us, who are born into undistinguished circumstances, there is very little to provoke the spirit. And I just don't think this can be influenced by things like poverty or starvation.
Oh, yeah, hardship wasn't exactly my point. What I ment is that it's too comfortable to forget about your mind in everything that's sort of known or available right now. Imagine yourself in 1800, right? You've done some work around the house, you've chopped some wood, you went into the house, had a dinner, now what: you sit in front of the fire with your pipe in your mouth thinking about tomorrow, about your relatives, about life. You're not busy, because right now you're doing nothing. Now lets go back to the present time, you came home from work, bought some groceries on the way, cooked some rice & chicken, drank some OJ, opened youtube/tv/videogame/magazine and started doing stuff, which is nothing really. So now you're too busy doing nothing, instead of "exploring your mind". Do you know what I mean? It's like there's too many distractions nowadays then they were.
you mostly don't have to worry about essential things like people did in the past (crops are failing, 5 out of 6 children are going to die)
I'd argue that these essential worries are necessary to feel alive. Will it bring sadness and misery? Sure it will. But to be alive mustn't we feel the entire range or feelings and emotions?In order to get to the essence of a person you have to break through that veil and found out, what kind of real "fire" is inside.
That's what I'm speaking about when I call us to talk to strangers. I feel it's important to get people to remember what the fire feels like. I believe talking to strangers, letting your guard down, and being open are essential to getting the population as a whole to dream again. While it'd only be one person at a time, over time, we'd begin to dream once more.
I was exaggerating there a bit. What I've meant was you had something not letting you into the absolute comfort zone, that clouds up your mind. But how the hell do you do that, when all you can hear is a talk about nothing completely in templates? People don't give out who they are to strangers, you gotta work your way through a man to find out who they really are. You get different answers to the same questions from the people who know you better or worse. In the current time we just create that wall of armor to defend us from society's judgement. So in reality people aren't really interested in who you really are, but in shell you're surrounded with. They would like the idea of knowing real you, but they'd be much more comfortable with a safe shell you've got.I'd argue that these essential worries are necessary to feel alive. Will it bring sadness and misery? Sure it will. But to be alive mustn't we feel the entire range or feelings and emotions?
That's what I'm speaking about when I call us to talk to strangers. I feel it's important to get people to remember what the fire feels like. I believe talking to strangers, letting your guard down, and being open are essential to getting the population as a whole to dream again. While it'd only be one person at a time, over time, we'd begin to dream once more.
You've got to rock the boat! Take the time to know, really know, a total stranger. Get dig under their high walls if you must. But see what stirs them, gets them riled up. Even if you don't agree with it, at least a grand discussion was had.
lol great tune. But it takes too much time and way too much effort. I dislike the shell immediately, because there are really people without it. They're just super rare. I've met a dude like that 3 years ago: completely blew my mind away. No fluff, straight to the point, became a good friend of mine. You know, when people go out there and...let's call it "meet someone" you hope he or she is nice, polite, respectful and all that sort of stuff. They don't want someone who goes "Fuck your point, and here's why". I had a date like that: the girl left feeling all confused and angry with me, because I haven't met her "shell expectations". I immediately get bored with a shell (I like the word "shell" so much in this particular sense :D ). So in the end there's gotta be some changes in society, in the "moral code" that will let people shake off their shackles of I don't know: uncertainty or awkwardness?
The change your speaking of has to occur with what you mentioned at the beginning of that comment.
I know exactly what you mean by meeting those who you can immediately tell would be great friends. That's actually how I met my girlfriend. The aurora she gave off was so encapsulating, I had to get to know her. We spent three years as best friends and the most recent three and a half in a relationship. Just put forth a little effort and talk to those whom you'd think would be awesome to talk to as opposed to the shelled person. Then, work your way up to breaking some shells.But it takes too much time and way too much effort.
If everyone had that mentality, no one would think the thoughts leading them to dream.
When you order a drink, take a first sip and immediately want to spit it out: do you sit there and keeping drinking it, hoping that in the end you will actually like it? Don't you think that a person who has imposed himself in a shell is already corrupted by it and the chance is higher that you won't like him as himself when you finally get to him?
I dream all sort of things all the time, thanks to a long imposure of books, movies, history and video games. And I have friends to talk those things over with. But it's harder to find a real person or to break someone's shell to see what's actually inside of him. My point is: I don't want to waste time digging into someone, who's dreams right now are about a flashy car to impress his friends. I might not even like what's in the end. And now I have to go and spend the same time on someone else? I'd rather go look for someone who's already real, who already has a higher chance of me liking his/her personality. Even if I won't I'm most certainly going to have a very interesting conversation.
As a matter of fact, I do. I'll have the drink a few more times in order to finalize an opinion that I know I can stand behind. For example, every time I even have a sip of Jim Beam, I want to vomit. I've tried it multiple times, and have concluded I really don't Jim Beam. But deep down in that person who is getting that flashy car is someone who is very insecure and in need of someone to care about them.
That is actually what I like most about conversing with strangers. I really enjoy breaking through someones armor and getting to know the person 'underneath'. Just grabbing a beer with a stranger at a bar really builds up a bond, and opens people up like nothing else. Sadly this trait has led me only to relationships of a couple days, since I get bored with them quite fast ...
Everyday people open new businesses. Every day people endeavor on trips and adventures down unknown paths. Every day people set goals, big goals for themselves and every day people achieve goals that they've set in the past. BTW, there is nothing better than getting to know a stranger, I really mean that. I'm the kind of guy that talks to the person on the plane. That said, nice to meet you BLOB_CASTLE, happy dreaming! I leave you with thisWhy does it feel that people don't dream anymore?
-It doesn't, not in my opinion. People are out there creating great art, music and literature. SpaceX is working on sending people to Mars, we are exploring the deepest depths of our oceans etc.You are the breathless hush of evening That trembles on the brink of a lovely song
-You're right, that is beautiful and you can hear more beautiful things more often but I wouldn't turn to your local pop radio station.
I completely agree with you and it's fantastic that those people are doing such amazing things. What I'm saying is that the majority of our population do not care for any of that, which is saddening. Again, I agree with you that these beautiful things exist. The song you posted is very nice, wonderful lyrics. But the thing is it's such a small percentage of music that is beautiful.
But come to think of it, isn't the reason we can appreciate it so much because of the filth that surrounds it. I suppose terrible music is a necessary evil. I struggle with myself so often, haha. Me too! I often take the Megabus to and from Chicago and Kansas City and I make an effort to have a conversation with those around me and I that's where I've had some of my best discussions. Very nice meeting you too. I've noticed you've been here a while, so it's nice to have one so famous as you take time for someone as new as myself.
Happy dreaming to you as well! In response to your video:
1) I've come to really enjoy Alan Watts thanks to Hubski. He's so frank about how everything we worry about is so pointless, I love it.
2) Such an incredible concept, the nothingness we live in. Thanks for sharing that.
The majority of people didn't care about people like the Wright brothers trying to fly. Apathy is not new to humanity at all. You need to realise that people haven't stopped dreaming, it's that we're dreaming about things that are even more difficult to do. Going to the moon is hard, going to Mars makes it look like a picnic, you have SO many other variables to take into account that it's mind boggling. To me it feels like the simpler, yet still difficult things have been done, the more complex, in-depth ideas are going to take a little more time to work on.
Out of curiosity, how long long were we interested (in the sense of having NASA focus on it) in going to the moon before we actually made it up there? So you're saying we've just set our goals so high, a lot of us are just losing patience with how long it's been since we've seen progress?
The only reason America went to the moon was because we sent Sputnik into space and the Americans got scared (I'm Ukrainian so I'm kind of from the other side of the coin here). We didn't do much else so when they realized that they stopped giving a damn. It's pathetic, really. America just wanted to win.
There wasn't any serious interest in the moon before Sputnik? Yeah...America isn't really all it's cracked up to be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc Here, watch this.
I've seen this before actually. I just wasn't sure if it was solely Sputnik or not.
The Megabus! Nice. I used to love to travel across the country by train. I would bring on a big bottle of whiskey with me and a deck of cards. All you need to make friends on a train are two things and I just mentioned them both.
It's getting late, so I saved that thread in order to read it tomorrow. Hahahaha that's awesome. Well, I turn 21 on Friday. After that I'll keep those two things on my person at all times.
2 things: 1. No need to read the post, it's just a list of essential train tips
2. Happy Birthday pal!
1. Well it might come in handy if by some miracle the Amtrak is cheaper than the Megabus. 2. Thanks!
You talk to people on planes?! You monster! ;)
Ha. I promise, I can read people pretty well and if they're not interested in talking I don't even start in. Trust me, I've had to put my head phones on a number of times on flights to dissuade the person next to me from speaking anymore.I think we do have some people who are striving for great things, but I don't see a culture of it. It's a shame, really.
It's all in who you associate with. If you were to step in to my shoes for a day and interact with the people my wife and I have chosen to cultivate friendships with, you would think the world was filled with dreamers. That said, I realize that there are many people that prefer to sit around and watch TV all day. But "dreaming" or having ambitions beyond your current station is not all that rare from my experience. -Thankfully.
I live with three other college students. One watches TV all day, the other is on his computer all day. I'm lucky enough that the third is my girlfriend who is a fellow dreamer.I realize that there are many people that prefer to sit around and watch TV all day
So you're not the only one.... Her name isn't Yoko by chance?
I find myself in the position of being willing to work hard and sacrifice for the things I love, but has a seriously hard time finding things to devote myself to. As much as I wish I were, I'm not an idea guy. I'm pretty good at compiling ideas into a reasonable, well put together argument, but for the most part I feel like I'm an aggregation of the thoughts and beliefs of others. It's strange. I have to wonder if this makes me part of the problem, haha
for the most part I feel like I'm an aggregation of the thoughts and beliefs of others.
Aren't we all?
And that leads to a discussion I was having the other day about 'cultural ratcheting'. How we as a species have been able to pass down non-vital knowledge throughout generations which allows us to develop as a species. Don't take it as a bad thing that you were formed from the thoughts and beliefs of others, but try and make it into your own. The human species is special because we can pass on knowledge, I think it is now our job to continue the cycle and present new information to others. Even if you don't think up some new crazy idea or anything, you can be important by teaching your kids valuable lessons you learned in life which helps them out, and maybe they can invent something cool, you never know.
I completely agree. Over time, an idea can change from one thing to another, to another, to another...and all because of the other ideas thrown into the pot along with it. Add some oregano, the smell changes. Add some salt, the taste changes. And, every now and then, people will do crazy things like add hot sauce and ice cream to the concoction. The foundation of your beliefs changes, but what is in the pot is still you. This reminds me of one of my favorite quote from Fahrenheit 451:
And someday, after it sets in us a long time, it'll come out our hands and our mouths. And a lot of it will be wrong, but just enough of it will be right. We'll just start walking today and see the world and the way the world walks around and talks, the way it really looks. I want to see everything now. And while none of it will be me when it goes in, after a while it'll all gather together inside and it'll be me. Look at the world out there, my God, my God, look at it out there, outside me, out there beyond my face and the only way to really touch it is to put it where it's finally me, where it's in the blood, where it pumps around a thousand times ten thousand a day. I get hold of it so it'll never run off. I'll hold onto the world tight someday. I've got one finger on it now; that's a beginning.
The world needs ditch diggers too JK. I have had a number of "big ideas" over the years that haven't panned out. The most rewarding things I've worked on have been other peoples initial idea. It's nice to be a part of a team, to contribute to something that becomes a sum of all the parts. It sounds to me like you have a pretty specific skill set "compiling ideas into a cohesive argument", that's a valuable thing. Don't sell yourself short.
Let's just get more and more of those who strive! Let's bring in a Renaissance of sorts!
NotSoTrue was spot on, but a quote comes to mind; "If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." - Antoine de Saint Exupéry We always can try to pull someone out of their comfort zone, but maybe not in the right way.
A very beautiful quote. That's exactly what I'm trying to say here. To instill such passion to dream in others that we'll do incredible things.
Sadly, but change is always possible. We just need to reinvigorate everyone in someway. We need to flip the switch from consumer to creator, talking to communicating. I know a new renaissance can start, it will be tough for the few who want it until it effects the many who need it.
To be honest, I somehow think that the ideas of apathy and things like not dreaming stem from a society that is growing stagnant. Some are fighting back ferociously against this, the people that create art, study science, and attempt to gain a better understanding of the world around us. However I think that at this point in time, the mass of the American public was raised to be leaning towards the apathetic, or in a better sense, they have been mass produced. The media that we are surrounded by with things such as Call of Duty, or even such simple things as having our refrigerators fully stocked all the time makes the American public uncaring. We have no need to dream because what more could we want? Living in the American dream has become a place where there is no need to go outside of the box. there is no need to be creative when things are being placed right in front of you. Now I'm only saying that there is no direct NEED to dream. Others CHOOSE to dream. There will always be dreamers out there, but in my opinion, we are now making less and less of those dreamers. Once America begins to decline at a noticeable rate there will be panic, and only after that point will we again begin to dream as a country together. All I know is that I'm going to keep trying my best to have a little class and culture.
So do you think that the children of our generation (assuming you're in the same generation as myself) will be brought up as dreamers because we see the world in decline and want to do something about it? Or do you think that as a whole, the decline will just continue until we ruin ourselves?
Well, thats a complicated question. Due to the extreme growth of many technological factors many kids will be dreaming in a different way than you or I may think of. We are becoming a technology based society and their ideas will spring forth from these topics. We will not ruin ourselves anytime soon (I hope). But there will always be those that are enveloped in mass media. Until there is a fundamental change in the way that our culture brainwashes us (which won't happen) not much will change. Children are a cash crop for big business, and will be molded by what they see. It will be our job as parents to form them into dreamers and philosophers.
So you'd say that it's the greed of the 'corporate fat cats,' if you will, that has led us down this path? When I become a parent, that is what I will be devoting my life too. There's an interesting trend among Silicon Valley CEOs that seems to do just that.Until there is a fundamental change in the way that our culture brainwashes us (which won't happen) not much will change. Children are a cash crop for big business, and will be molded by what they see.
I think that debate is more about what a free society is. If you live in a place where everyone is protected it in turn means there is a power to control everyone and as history reminds us, this often leads to the wrong people ending up in power resulting in much more horrific happenings.But is being efficient what we really want? Do we really want to be safe? Is not living with uncertainty the entire purpose of living?
So do you believe in a free or controlled society?
I think it's two things causing us not to dream anymore : judgement and fear. People have become too afraid to be judged, to pursue their dreams. Me personally, i'd like to build a spacecraft and an iron man suit. Most of you will tell me i wont succeed. Do I care? No. Thats why i started studying physics ; im pursuing my dreams! Many of my friends are just happy when they eat, live and die. The other thing component is fear. People rather stay in their comfortable homes than go out. They dont go out to bars meeting strangers. I think " may you live in interesting times" is a chinese curse . Concluding, I think people are too scared of either whats to come, and of being judged. Take away these elements, and people will dream again. One thing I think may catalyze this is a common goal. People on the moon, mars or beyond? Everyone will share a sense of connectedness, which will be very benefiting to mankind as a whole.
I agree with you that these are at the root of the issue, along with a few others (such as a lack of community. But, that might be from judgement as well). And the world needs more people like you then. Those who aren't afraid to go after their dreams, even after they've been told countless times that they'll fail. Can I get a ride in the Iron Man suit once you've built it?
I actually excel when people tell me it cant be done. Ordinarily, i quite often say 'cant be done', but when people tell me, ill keep on going until it can be done. Why? I hate people telling me what I can and cant do. And sure you can, you can even help me test it! I just need to learn autocad, lots of physics , chemistry and biology, buy some 3D printers and we're good to go!
Our society is increasingly being driven to favour ideas that are rationally sustained; ideas which are corroborated by reasoning, and which entice the approval of our practical notions. This is largely the result of industrialisation and capitalist enterprise; we're so immensely concerned for our worldly successes, that we seldom indulge ourselves with the opportunity to transcend it all, and to step into the realm of imagination. What will it take for us to dream again? I think the same question can be associated with other questions of a similar nature. What will it take for us to entertain unreasonable beliefs? What will it take for us to nourish faith and superstition as fervently as we used to? We are so firmly entrenched in our devotion to practical reasoning and utility, that we are divesting ourselves of our spiritual notions, and becoming, as it were, dreamless sleepers. Perhaps irrationality can't be justified or supported. I don't think it'd be a good idea if we impetuously embraced all the conspiracy theories and religions that we encountered, and lifted ourselves to a world filled with illusions, entirely for the sake of maintaining the impulse to dream. I don't agree with pursuing crusades and hallucinations. But humans are irrational creatures by nature, and when we wrench ourselves away from that, and begin to focus instead on objective argument and frigid reasoning - that's when our dreams begin to fade and wither.
But humans are irrational creatures by nature, and when we wrench ourselves away from that, and begin to focus instead on objective argument and frigid reasoning - that's when our dreams begin to fade and wither.
I agree this statement. I seems that we have lost track of the balance between rational and irrational pursuits. It's as if we've forgotten that for there to be rational ones to , there must be irrational ones. And over time, these irrational ones can be shown to be more rational than the originally thought rational pursuits.
Which do you believe would be more beneficial: The removal of these habits and programs outright? Or talking to people and showing them the error of their ways to slowly ween society as a whole?
I think the reason many of us don't let ourselves chase our dreams is because we're afraid to fail - we'd rather hold onto our dreams than watch them fall apart.
Feel free not to respond if it's too personal, but do you find that true of yourself as well?
Yeah, being honest with myself, I do. For example, I've been playing piano for almost 13 years now. But there are some people that are just as good or better but with half the amount of experience. I've found myself practicing less, and I was giving the excuse that I was just too busy to practice, and that's why I'm not as good as them. It's not that I'm not as talented, I just don't have the time. I think a lot of people do this. We don't study for tests because we're afraid we'll fail them anyways. We don't ask out that guy/girl because we're afraid they'll reject us. At least then we can look back and tell ourselves we could have done it, instead of realizing we weren't able to. I actually realized all this when thinking about New Years' resolutions. At least I figured that out.
What a perfect time to write about this then, haha. I think that failure isn't something we should shun, but rather embrace! It's part of life! Why would we not want to embrace any part of it?
This is something everyone struggles with (myself very much included). I like that you brought this up because I think it's a definitely a reason as to why we've stopped dreaming.