Long story short I will not be buying a house next year. Instead, I will be in the midst of obtaining my MBA. (Hopefully - I have to get in first.) Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men gang aft aglee. Everything behind this decision makes for a long story in its own right - that I'm willing to share - but NOT here.
Right here and right now, I'd like to know, Hubski. Have any of you gone to graduate school? What for? (I think we have some physics grad students here? I know there's a perception that we have a lot of physic-ians, don't know how accurate it is...)
ESPECIALLY, have any of you pursued, attempted to pursue, or even obtained your MBA? (Master's of Business Administration)
I am in the mess of writing admissions essays (I commiserate with everyone on here who's applying to college or will be shortly; this sucks). My admissions essays so far are terrible. There's one where I have to explain how getting an MBA will help me achieve my vocational objective and I basically wrote "I want to be the best and take over the world" over and over again except in fancier language. I probably sound like a huge asshole.
Now I'm writing an essay for a GMAT waiver. My first sentence is five lines long. It's not going well - but I'm a writer who's of the opinion that any words are better than no words. Hopefully I can spew enough out that I can work with something, or I can figure out what I'm doing totally wrong when I revisit these essays in a day or two.
I would like to know if anyone has any advice for this long and arduous trek. Also, if anyone can help determine why I shouldn't have to take the GMAT (other than "I don't want to and I'm smart, god damn it, plus it's expensive") that would be really appreciated. In the meantime, I leave you with my five-line-long introductory sentence.
- Although the GMAT may be a useful admissions tool to help determine whether graduate school applicants may succeed in their program of choice, I believe that such a metric is best suited for applicants who either apply immediately after obtaining their undergraduate degree or possess a lack of significant work experience, either due to insufficient time in the workforce or an occupation which does not readily provide experience with GMAT topics and skills such as data analysis, critical thinking, and sound logic.
P.S. Also, am I allowed to reference "Of Mice and Men" in my GMAT waiver, or are they totally not going to get it? English major here.
After getting a BS in Accounting & Finance, I went on and got a Master of Accounting. Graduate school greatly benefited me, despite more than doubling the amount of student loan debt I have. I took the GMAT exam, so I cannot speak to the waiver process. Because I went to a small, obscure undergraduate school, I was not able to get any internships in public accounting at all, let alone at a big 4 firm. Instead, I had to settle for internships in finance and compliance, which did little towards a career in accounting after graduation. Having no success breaking into public accounting, I decided to apply to graduate programs. One school offered me a graduate teaching assistant position for a 50% waiver plus a modest stipend (not enough to cover rent), so I made the difficult decision to go from $30k in student loan debt to $75k in debt and go to graduate school. I did not even have to apply for interviews—I gave a copy of my resume to the Careers office, and public accounting firms would e-mail and call me to ask me what time they could come and interview me at my school. I interviewed with all of the big 4 firms and several other public accounting firms, and received four offers before I accepted one and declined further consideration at the other firms. I was astonished to go from not being able to get a foot in the door to being sought after. I loved my experience in graduate school and think it was extremely worthwhile for my career. The MBA program was the flagship graduate program at my school, as I believe it is for most. The dynamics are different, however, as the MBA is more generalist than the MAcc. From speaking to peers, I know that the MBA students were quick to have offers in-hand. I would strongly encourage you to consider not just going to graduate school, but also which graduate school. I would recommend you look up MBA rankings and try to go to the most competitive program that you are admitted to. I believe the university on the degree matters more than the degree itself in terms of recruiting and career management. I do not think it would have benefited me to get a Master’s degree from my undergraduate school. If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask. The graduate admissions process is very different from undergraduate. Don’t be intimidated if schools ask you to interview (they will pay your expenses), as it is more about making sure you will represent the school well than actually testing your knowledge (e.g., having the good sense to dress professionally). The classes were all group-work (mostly cases), which I believe is also true for MBA programs, which is good because you will meet and become close to many other classmates who will go on to be successful—the networking opportunities are one of the main benefits, in my opinion. Best wishes!
The people I know who have benefitted from grad school of any kind have generally approached grad school with a purpose in mind. The people I know who have gotten their MBAs tend to spend a lot of time as middle managers. one of them ended up as a VP of a fortune 500 company. His wife, who didn't have an MBA, went further. So here's the question: what is this MBA going to get for you? Specifically? Not in a "I'm a college admissions counselor" sort of way but in a "I'm someone you meet at a bar ten years from now who asks why you got an MBA" sort of way. 'cuz unless you have a really clear answer to that question, the rest of it is going to be difficult. $250 is a drop in the bucket, by the way. Grad degrees are hella expensive. I took the GRE and applied to the Peter Stark Producer's Program at USC and despite a stupendously high GRE score and a letter of recommendation from one of the guys who produced Pirates of the Caribbean, did not get in. Which, in the end, saved me about $190k... ...because at my first big job in Hollywood, a mere 6 weeks after being rejected, I was making around a dollar a minute... while the coffee pot was kept fresh and the snacks were stocked by a PA with a MFA from the Peter Stark Producer's Program at USC. Not saying grad school is a waste of time. I'm the least educated person amongst my circle of friends (unless you count the other sound mixers I know, two of which even went to college, and three of which didn't even graduate high school, all of us making crazy money for what we do). My best buddy has an MFA; my wife has a doctorate, several friends are tenured professors. Just saying that if you don't have a clear idea what you're going to get out of it, you are less likely to get something clear out of it.
1) I feel that the opportunity to obtain an MBA at half (approximately) the cost - employer paying remainder - is a big incentive to pursue the degree. It's not free, but it'll be relatively cheap. It's kind of like contributing to a 401(k) up to the employer match. If I don't pursue this opportunity, I'm throwing away 5k a year that my company will just give me[1] as long as I get good grades. 2) An MBA would make people take me seriously. Not that they don't right now - however, I do think MBAs in (my) business world are looked at as "superior" or in some way more skilled/intelligent than their peers without the degree. It is a distinction. It would also increase my earning potential and "ability to go places" in the long run. In addition, I'm hoping I actually learn some valuable things, (accounting, finance, business-y type crap) even if I do later use this knowledge to move to Colorado and just start a marijuana company. Or hippie commune, but the first one, really. In addition hopefully an MBA would make me more versatile in terms of my experience and skill set; I'm pretty relegated to one area of banking now and I see a few potential ways out of that area - 1) become a manager (goal already), 2) obtain MBA, talk talk, walk walk, convince people I know what I'm doing due to impressive shiny credential, 3) accept shittier jobs in other areas to become "well-rounded." 3) I want to avoid the GMAT because it's one more thing to study for more than because it'll be a few hundred bucks. It also would add [some] time before I could apply and enroll, however probably not a lot. Really it would be on my end; I'd want to study, prep, and would probably delay/dead the GMAT for longer than I needed to. It's more "Ugh GMAT would be a hassle, let's get around it somehow." 4) Yeah. I'm only applying to one school, the state school, and if I don't get in I don't get in. That school's the cheapest of my nearby options by several thousand dollars/semester unless I want to get a degree from the local college that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. UPenn wouldn't take me if ...I don't know, if I did something really amazing and famous-making, I don't meet their graduate school admissions requirements - undergrad GPA too low - I don't feel I have any good options except the state school. I'm not willing to take on a substantial financial burden for this. Moderate, yes, substantial, no. 5) MFAs are by and large degrees that are really nice to get for passionate artsy people. I am not sure that they are degrees to get if you want your expensive master's education to relate to your employment, assuming you would like to be able to live off your pay. I feel like I have a good opportunity in front of me I should capitalize on. Having an MBA (assuming I succeed; assuming I even get in) can't foreseeably hurt me in any way and could help me in several.
[1] To pay for school, admittedly.
Awright. So we're at "An MBA from the one school I'm applying to will increase my personal marketability and credibility at modest expense to myself." Nothing wrong with that, not going to contradict it. I will, however, suggest that you fact-check it: Find salary statistics for that school's MBA program and see how much better an average grad from there does than you're doing already. That's your baseline. Compare what you could be doing with your time instead - you will write fewer poems while studying for an MBA, for example. Evaluate what your time is worth and the impact this degree will have on your future earnings. Make your decision based on that. Take the rest of this with a grain of salt: I debated an MBA for maybe 20 minutes. I come back to it from time to time. An Ivy League MBA, from what I've seen, counts for hella more than an MBA from anywhere else... but an MBA from anywhere else literally counts the same as an MBA from literally anywhere else. In other words, that added shiny credential may be just as good from the University of Phoenix as it is from whatever state school. There may also be other schools that do online study whose credential might be cheaper and/or lower impact on your life. "Where you got your degree" matters on the resume; beyond the resume, your ability to do shit carries the day. I took the GRE, not the GMAT. I don't know the GMAT. As I recall, it's a bullshit SAT for MBAs. As MBAs are largely bullshittery, you might view the GMAT as a microcosm of your next two years. Studying for the GMAT might give you a good sense of whether or not an MBA is to your taste. As you say, it's $250 and a substantial investment of your time... which will likely be emblematic of $5k a year and a more substantial investment of your time. In order to be a balls-out engineer, you must apprentice to a Professional Engineer. You then take the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam. If you pass it, you are allowed to take the PE (Professional Engineer) exam one year later, which permits you to sign architectural drawings and be legally responsible for large construction projects. It was in studying for the EIT that I discovered that engineering is bullshit, I don't enjoy it, and fuck everything about Mohr's Circle. Note that I was a practicing engineer at the time - calculus, finite element analysis, nodal modelling, the whole nine yards - but that being forced to go back and study the shit that had bored the fuck out of me in college caused me to re-evaluate certain life choices. Four months later I changed jobs and eighteen months later I moved to Hollywood, optioned two screenplays and started mixing television for a living. If this is an incremental change, examine the increment and evaluate it from a costs/benefits standpoint. If this is a paradigm shift, evaluate it from a where you are/where you're going standpoint. Either way, good luck... and know that I write this after a shot of Southern Comfort 'cuz I dusted the fuck out of a Ferrari F430 Scuderia with the engine map on econ mode and while it's a bad idea to rip down the 405 at 130mph at midnight holy fuck did I feel alive.
Oddly enough, I'm yet to meet a Chemical Engineer that is certified as a PE. This is despite working for three different companies, having exposure through my department and AIChE, and other areas. As for the rest of your paragraph there. Yeah, engineering is kind of a load of crap. Life sciences seem much more interesting and beneficial.In order to be a balls-out engineer, you must apprentice to a Professional Engineer. You then take the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam. If you pass it, you are allowed to take the PE (Professional Engineer) exam one year later, which permits you to sign architectural drawings and be legally responsible for large construction projects.
PE is mainly for civil and architectural engineering (not sure about aerospace). Chemical and automotive are whole other beasts, and a PE credential isn't really geared toward those fields (and you won't make one red cent more having earned one, so what's the point?).
I did 3 years of a math PhD, and am working on a computer science MS now. My admissions essays were both much shorter than they asked for, and were both along the lines of "$subject is a whole lot of fun. I have done some cool things with $subject. I would like to study $subject more, so that I can do more cool things with it. These faculty members in your department are doing some awful cool things with $subject, I sure would like to do some cool things with them." MBA programs might be different, since I don't think anyone has ever said "business is a whole lot of fun" with a straight face, but I think you're probably stressing about the essays more than you need to.
It's possible. I also realized I'm out of practice at tradional structured essay writing. I wrote two "career stories" before I realized I should be going for a persuasive essay, complete with thesis, topic sentences, and supporting paragraphs. (I think the structure will not only help me focus but help me feel better about what I'm writing.) I think you're probably stressing about the essays more than you need to.
I went to grad school for three semesters in a combined masters/PhD program (English lit.). The short and sweet is this: I left the program because I did a simple cost/benefit analysis and found that I wouldn't recoup the expense of finishing the program. I will probably go back and finish eventually, but I will be doing it on my employer's dime. Also, to be totally honest, I didn't enjoy grad school. I felt like I was insulating myself from a real, vital life and focusing on self-indulgent and ultimately meaningless pursuits. I'm still interested in my field of study (medieval lit and mythopoeic literature) but I'm much happier treating it as a fun hobby rather than a serious academic career. Edit: Also also, I wasn't very good at it, so there's that...
Thank you for your response, I appreciate your honesty. I know what you mean about the mastubatory thing except I get that with writing sometimes (creative writing is my passion). I find when I write about my life it starts to feel very mastubatory. Medieval lit also sounds like a pretty hard sell unless you're going into academia :)
Yeah, there's not much call for people who can recite Chaucer in Middle English, but that's okay. I hope I didn't come across as discouraging. I think education is always a valuable pursuit. However, in the current environment, cost really must be taken into consideration. I think the best way to get an MBA is to find an employer who will pay for it while you're working and earning a salary.
Well I suppose that depends on the disposition of the reader, doesn't it? I would guess that the majority of readers would agree with you, because the majority of readers are nigh on illiterate. However, if you get that one admissions administrator who enjoys sentence structure and the craftwork of writing (and not just the content), then perhaps it's going splendidly! My own experience with graduate school was wonderful, although it wasn't similar to what one would have to do to obtain an MBA, as it was a full time, five year slog through a PhD in biophysics. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm not sure I can give you any advice, given the qualitative difference in our goals. The one thing that I think is universal, however, is that it's best to think of what a fulfilling life might look like, and then to try and monetize that. If you love your job, and think that an MBA is going to allow you to further lead a life that you desire, then by all means it's the right choice (independent of financial cost). I suspect that, based on the fact that you're looking for advice in the first place, that you're not so passionate about debit and credits and personnel management and supply chain optimization and so forth (I'm falling asleep even writing these words!). In that case, it's certainly not a wrong choice, but should be carefully evaluated in simple actuarial terms, as has been suggested elsewhere here. But that's not so easy either, given that what happens in the average has little to do with what might or might not happen to the individual, thus rendering such calculations near worthless.My first sentence is five lines long. It's not going well...
bb, I don't know what a fulfilling life would look like. Is it fulfilling to be able to pay the bills and afford to do what you want to do in your spare time? Is it fulfilling to be a starving artist? Would committing to my job, or even throwing myself into it, in the pursuit of success (becoming good at my job) be fulfilling? Because it is nice to be good at things. I'm not the sort to cash out my savings and ride into the sunset on a grand life-changing adventure, or to start a business out of nowhere in an attempt to change my life. I very much like to have plans, a little safety net, triple-checked bolts and all that. While I certainly have passions I have a lot of difficulty seeing how they apply in terms of employment in The Real World. Which means that basically I'm looking at a life of employment in fields that aren't my first/immediate/primary passions, unless I am highly interested in earning something somewhat below the poverty level. Which I ain't. I don't think that I'm going to find personal fulfillment in any typical job I could picture myself pursuing, unless I go back for grad school anyway, and the two jobs I'm thinking of - education or psychology - would involve getting into more debt to probably earn less money. Which, to me, seems stupid. The math doesn't work. Or I could go into academia after even more graduate school and earn even less money. Or I could get an MFA in poetry and live on the street. I am interested in business and finance because they are my job and I have to be interested in my job at least somewhat; it's fun to compare banks and I do lurk in r/personalfinance and occasionally speak up when financial regulations start coming up in the discussion. The interest would probably remain but fade if I went to a totally different field. What I do isn't bad, and frankly in comparison to most people I know I've got it tits. I really do. As for what happens with the average, well there are problems there you know. I have 4 years of work experience that are going to influence my salary. I'd like to know the stats on the average age of a UD MBA graduate, maybe their experience, so I could put that contextually with the average income a year after graduation that I found. I don't think I will be able to use the average statistics about my college in order to justify the MBA, just based on where I am today without an MBA. Because I refuse to believe I'd get an MBA and not see that recognized from work somehow, and even if they didn't, I'm sure I could leverage the degree and my current position into a sweet advancement somewhere else. My job is my job. It's something I do and I'm good enough at it and the benefits are such that leaving becomes a ludicrous thought. (Which sucks, but are you going to say no to working from home once a week and flexible functionality during poor weather, personal illness, or just one of those days when you need to be at home? Are you going to say no to being able to Hubski at work? Can I deny the benefit of being able to scrawl out poetry in my spare time, or read it, if I wish? Would you say no to a job that foots your cell phone bill and never ever calls you during non-work time anyway? I could relocate across the country and keep this job (theoretically). They'll pay for half of grad school. I get unlimited sick days. If I need to leave early one day I can leave early, nbd. I have a really sweet gig and I know that. Just because I don't love it doesn't mean I should be blind to everything great about it. You know? I think that's what I struggle with. No, I don't love this job, but most other jobs (at least in this industry) would be way worse. And most other jobs I'd be interested in can't provide the benefits I enjoy, and most of them don't pay enough to make rent either honestly. (with sarcasm) Life is so tough :P
Certainly. It's not for me or anyone else to tell you what a fulfilling life is, or to judge you for not having the same vision of one as me. I'm simply of the belief that it's something that not everyone thinks about enough. There is a pervasive fatalism in our society that gets people to believe that they aren't supposed to be happy, and that they need to settle; settle for a mate, for a job, an income, their lot. It's an incorrect narrative, but none of this is to say that you can't be happy in finance. It's a personal choice. But this: Says the poet with the ring tattoo! I would have pegged you for a risk taker, although I like the juxtaposition, I suppose.Just because I don't love it doesn't mean I should be blind to everything great about it. You know?
I'm not the sort to cash out my savings and ride into the sunset on a grand life-changing adventure, or to start a business out of nowhere in an attempt to change my life. I very much like to have plans, a little safety net, triple-checked bolts and all that.
1) Ring tattoo came about during a time in my life where I was definitely, certifiably not in the right place of mind to be making decisions, and predictably, the decisions I was making may have seemed irrational or, well, less than sane. And quite probably were. 2) Spontaneity every day, plans for the long-term. :)
I am thinking about getting an MBA. I was told recently by a guy who retired as head of Shell Oil's Africa office (or something) and now consults for Columbia University's MBA admissions office that they wouldn't even consider me unless I had several years of private sector hands-on experience. Just a perspective.
On the bright side I have four years' of progressive experience in my field; it's not a lot but it's enough to appear established, I think. Of course, Columbia could find a dozen reasons to deny me in the blink of an eye, were I to apply there. Dat undergrad GPA, it ain't so great.